list of non calvinist theologians
I err on the side of allowing too much now, just because the value of finally being able to have a voice is so huge! If you think I should be sensitive and hold my tongue at times, then I agree. You should see another Christian blog where the wars are almost as bad (hatred-wise) as the different Muslim sects slaughtering each other in Iraq & Syria. Its also what attracts many people to Calvinism nice boxes for everything, and rules connecting those boxes. I dont think God wanted this to happen- any more than he plans for children to be abused or any other of the litany of horrors that go on in this world. ), but if taken to its logical outcomes, yes, at the end of the day, Cal really does teach X. Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? They are the ones who preach and teach and write as if five point "TULIP" Calvinism is part of the gospel itself and anyone who does not believe in it is only "almost Christian" or "Christian,. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! I just ordered the book! Best Overall non calvinist systematic theology: This non calvinist systematic theology is the king of the hill. Recently, Julie Anne Smith, of the Spiritual Sounding Board, hada bit of a crisis in dealing with Calvinism. Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. They tend to become kings when in power too long. Off my nursing soapbox . A A Arminianism refers to a belief structure ascribed to Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609), a Dutch Christian theologian who studied the tenants of Calvinism. I agree with that perspective as well. Might we call what youre describing love? Again, if it were a matter of someone, as I put it earlier, beating someone over the head with their beliefs, that would be different. ++++++++++++++++. Im not sure if Lloyd Legalist is a Calvinista, but they might be related: https://twitter.com/LloydLegalist/status/374295516462739456. Yes, Jeff S. It is important to try and balance the need to have a voice and going too vitriolic. If a man chooses to rape a woman, does God have the power to stop him? He beat me to the punch. Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. 2. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. He is the primary cause of everything that comes to pass, the power supply for all force; secondary causes are always dependent for their power on the primary source of power.. In fact, as Sproul describes what he sees as the sovereignty if God, his view is the latter- that God exercises his sovereignty by choosing what he allows and what he does not. Grabs your hand and raises your arm & enthusiastically shows you off as The winner and still the champ! Feels your joy with you. Keep in mind, until the last 7 years, I had no reason to view Calvinism with any sort of negativity. of one. 1) That article. . if man does NOT get to decided the level of his depravity (by knowing good from evil and choosing it) then God must decide FOR himwhich means, again, that not being as bad as you could be is irrelevant. Youd be welcome at the table in my wigwam too Jeff. (Okay, back into lurk..later, yall!). But I urge you to be careful in trying to correct what you see as a misunderstanding especially if the person you are correcting has dealt with abuse. Does that make my stance clearer? I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. @ Hester: Which is also one of the reasons I mentioned (a bit upthread) that Lutheran does not equal having to believe in every daggoned thing that Luther wrote. I think these are minor issues, but it is what it is. Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. I went through what Calvinists themselves call the cage stage, meaning that young or new Calvinists belong in one. I think this post was a great step toward making those folks feel more welcome. Whatever power is exhibited in this world is not due to an independent machine with its own source of power and energy. This is an absolutely beautiful statement! We bumped into a former leaderfrom Ed's church at Bent Tree. They think they are helping and by knowing what they believe about Calvinism, it will be of comfort to them. How to Resign from a Church I hear the person, Calvin, discussed more than Jesus. I hear the word gospel placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. People need to practice their voice till they can mature in how they use it. However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). Therefore, I wanted to keep the door open in this discussion. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point.. If for no other reason than to keep it easier to tell us apart? Ben Witherington III 24. It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. We are to not worry about that; rather, be glad that any are saved. But never, ever did it raise anything except a good discussion. Tell othersthat such thinking hurts you but do not expect them to understand. @wartwatch Not even the milk toast "We regret if anyone was offended"? Benjamin Keach (1640-1704) Keach served as the pastor of Horse-lie-down church in Southwark, England. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. They never want to explain why what they believe brings God more glory than what you believe. But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? Im sure we will have our playful little jabs, and he doesnt mind dishing it. I am sorry those times seemed to have been exchanged for dogma over Christian friendship. I think it means that God is aware of every molecule (which He created, of course), and that none of them escapes His will. And honestly, whether they admit it or not, it appears to me most of the good Calvinist I know operate that way anyway. I realize that, even with these qualifications, there are those who find such a God abhorrent, and that there are some who will be upset by the notion of such a God, probably because of some terrible thing they went through. Do not expect to win the argument, no matter how logical and "winsome" you are. It is the place for me, but maybe not for you. Unfortunately, to some, that means I may not even be a Christian. How wonderful to remember those days! A lot of people (hostile atheists especially) like to frame the whole ordeal as in, How mean or wrong it was of God to make that forbidden fruit tree when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it, but the guy pointed out thats the not the way to look at it. We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. Good point. In fact, Ive probably used that word less in the previous 14 years than I have this last year interacting online. The simple interpretation of total depravity is this: because you are human (totally), you are perpetually and inexorably morally corrupt, and the only way you can understand any truth is if God functionally does it for you via the doctrine of arbitrary election. I became involved in the Way my freshman year in college here in N.C. (Greensboro). *If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong. Could we continue this discussion under the more recent Calvinist post, For Calvinists? @ Arce: I dont understand, then, why, on your blog, you allowed a Calvinism Free For All. I didnt notice any Calvinists telling people that God wanted you to be raped, or something like that. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others.. My young son-in-law has just been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. Those wishes are not uncommon. What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. That is where I focus when it comes to the existence of evil and suffering. +++++++++++++++++. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. Here is my point as a non-theology major. But these things do not happen independently of God. The purpose of these posts is to build understanding, if thatis at allpossible. I know the moving target frustrates you, but when you say so many and this is directly in contrast to both my personal experience and the most important historical confession of the faith, I get frustrated. Once we start playing the salvation game, the battle becomes nasty. They find it sustaining. Almost all theists (Calvinists, Arminian, other) agree that God could have- so why didnt he? Since I have never read Instititues, I cant be more specific. This may sound like its contradictory, but I dont think it is. I have been given books and literature from The theology is weak. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. Who did he think he was? Once we agree that all ideas have the exact same chance of being wrongwe have merely held the door open for ANOTHER, and even more sinister and vicious, arbiter of truth to be released: the power of the keys, which is nothing more than the power of DESTRUCTIONand with this, the powers that be continue to be the powers that be. @ Muff Potter: But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship at the house of God, as we walked about among the worshippers. Even if we say we agree in the fundamentals/indisputables Calvinism makes it clear, and both Jeffs have admitted, that there is no human agency capable of understanding truth fully. about how wrong they are about what they have been taught (and therefore believe) about Calvinism/Reform/Tulip. In fact, I would go so far as to say I think its unbiblical. Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Feb 9, 2018. These are things that we can work on together, no matter our view on election. This would definitely color their opinion. Dee, your post brought back child hood memories of Boston. Was your family Christian? I wish we didnt even have to talk about it. We have to balance very carefully allowing some women to blow off steam vs being vitriolic in their hatred of all things male. Thats why I wrote If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong.. I always get a smile on my face when I get an email whichcallsme out on my pitiful understanding of the faith. The same dynamic that caused Charles Darwin to say I am not a Darwinist and Karl Marx to say I am not a Marxist? You are still lost in your finite mind. Unless I either stop believing what I think is true or shut up about it, it seems I will forever put in a box of this nonsense, unloving idea that God is the author of evil and we are mindless automatons. He embraced Reformed soteriology after initially subscribing to Arminianism. I always thought of it as the Good News of the death and Resurrection of Jesus which resulted in the forgiveness of sins for those of us who believe. I understand the desire for them, I respect the way that they are conceived, and there are parts of them that I think very useful, but as a whole, they are too small for the God I now know. (I mean, Star Trek?). We are. If all that they know are talking points, then it is hard to back them up. The first two Baptist theologians were John Smyth (ca. We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless! Jeff S, He is still in a leadership position within the church. Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. Hence, your free will is categorically subject to Gods absolute control (meaning, God allowing is functionally the exact same thing as Him not allowing; anything that happens happens as a direct function of his will, either via that positive (allowing) or the negative (not allowing)in either case, your free will is utterly under Gods sovereign control. We know that some of you disagree with us. The ranks of well-known Arminians include historical and current day Roman Catholics, the Remonstrants of the 17th century and John and Charles Wesley. We dont have to dwell on our differences. He can- but there will be scars and pain that will not go away in this life. This is the place where all the puzzle pieces do not fit for me, and I am OK with that. My bet would be that some (many?) @ Katie: The Calvinistas have just put a new spin on how to usurp Gods authority (the Holy Spirit) over the individual believer. Again, this idea that humans had no will to act is not something that the WCF, RC Sproul, or any Calvinist I know believes. Ill have to look that one up. @ JeffB: Admittedly, Calvin also had a lot of temporal power, which he did not always use wisely. Some of the formers non- above-board activities may be partly an outgrowth of his beliefs. And when you [Calvinists whom he is addressing] quote Charles Spurgeons words equating Calvinism and the gospel (a place where I believe the great Spurgeon got it wrong), you are not saying that those of us who do not subscribe to all the points of Calvinism fail to believe the gospel. I hold you in high esteem. But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? Im aware of his molecule statement. 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. I can know that such a rule/principle is wrong because Jesus said the two central commands are to love God above all and neighbor as self, and then he called the rest of the Bible, all the laws and principles to be an addendum to those central two laws. (My experience, from childhood on.). G. Campbell Morgan 16. Actually, I admire you for letting it go on, but it would certainly be understandable if you had called a halt to it. No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. I think this is a bigger issue than Calvinism- its one fundamental to Christianity. (Sorry, elastigirl, but you were so honest about the kind of God we all want that I have to use your example.) This is my personal Faithlife account. He does not reject the Gospel, but he does reject predestination as presented by Calvin. It is not love to push Calvin. It does mean that Calvinist and non-Calvinist Christians alike will have a far more difficult time sitting under the Word of God together when both sides appeal to the nuclear arsenal of the World Wide Web. Or to say it differently, I loosely hold to the idea that God is in control of every molecule. 2. I was a Jesus Movement convert, too in 1972. [footnote]For more on what Calvinism espouses, see https://laikostheologos.com/introduction-to-soteriology/%5B/footnote%5D. Groovy, man. When you get called a heretic,"barely a Christian" or whatever, think of it this way. . And speaking for myself, I take that conflict ( as an adult, as a student of scripture, having read many books on Calvinism) very seriously. by allowing them). And I will not say I could bebecause many of us understand that once we concede that men and women cannot know truth, then there is only one thing left to decide who gets to wield Gods authority on earth, because reason and logically reconcilable ideas have no place in truth: violence. Per PSA, I am pretty sure that that is the official stance of the Lutheran end of thingsbut I really shouldnt be talking about theories of the atonement because I havent studied them worth a hoot. Brings to mind the documentary This Emotional Life I saw on PBS. There was a reason we (the US) put in a Constitutional Amendment to term limit the president. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. What Julie Anne is saying is also elaborated by Christa Brown in chapter 46 of her book This Little Light as well as here: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html, Hester, thank you for that word pictureit will lend an air of drama to my week . In both cases, mans mind is wholly incapable of real understanding. They MUST insist you agree with themit is implied in the very protest to my assertion: You dont understand me; you cant understand me; thus, your only response is to AGREE that you could be wrong. Accept that Calvinists findpeace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. And really, in the end, if a doctrine about the majesty and greatness of God doesnt comfort traumatized people (among all the needy humans out there), then of what real use is it? I dont have an answer, but I dont like the other alternatives either (that God doesnt exist, is not all powerful, or is evil). The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child., I think Jesus meant childlike, not childish. Childlike faith and trust are good, but faith has content, and, as it says in Hebrews, we should not be satisfied all our lives with the milk of the word, but should graduate to solid food.. Where we end, he begins. In that case they are probably reading an interpretation of what Calvin actually wrote. Apollos! discussions. This website helped me tremendously as a recovering Piperite, and Im so grateful that I dont have to believe that God CAUSED this illness for some mysterious glory. Yes, God WILL receive glory somehow from it, but thats not his grand purpose. Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. Oy. Im eagerly awaiting my next blog post, too The blog kind of fell off the wayside due to some personal stuff that ate up most of my time. To help clarify this, theologians for centuries have distinguished between primary and secondary causality. He/She needs to be able to clearly understand why it is damaging and to openly explain how he/she does not hold to those ideas, which have been so awful as to cause some among us to become suicidal. Calvin's Commentaries on the Bible "After the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other As I was leaving Dallas, a man I did not know well approached me in church and said he wanted to correct something I had said. He referred to our mutual, former experience as Bible light. Weeps with you. There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. This is not the way toward peace. I am not promoting Lutheranism as the only place to go. For what its worth, Darcyjo, you have my respect as is deserved by a soldier in the front line of what Patricia King calls the Love War. How can a bridge be built when the side you are attempting to reach constantly moves its shoreline back and forth in an effort to maintain its monolithic sovereignty as THE only standard of true Christian thought? He "knew" that only the infants of covenantal believers go to heaven. I didn't quite understand the sin stuff. I would be happy, however, to never use the label Calvinist again, out of respect for Jeff and Jeff. However, when a woman has been abused for years by the men in her life, its going to be natural that she lashes out at men and not feel safe around them. It seems to me that JeffS and Craig (over at SSB) understand that point and are processing it beautifully. For example, we should never, ever turn our backs on child sex abuse because the pastor in the church where it happened is one of our good buddies. Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God, and our salvation and love for others is a part of that. When people reject Calvinism because they think it makes us mindless automatons, that bothers me because that isnt what it is about. There are Cals who admonish other Cals to stop behaving this way, sometimes in their in-house squabbles such as, I am not trying to argue doctrine, because that is not my or anyone elses business here. Arguing these issues sends me down the crazy cycle of shame, pain, abandonment, God not hearing me, etc. We are glad that you do. Your voice is missing! I wont go into all of them. But RC, as a neo-Cal intellectual, is, I think, trying to avoid what so many Calvinists do with regularity, and have no problem with it: concede that at the root of what they believe are ideas that simply cannot be reconciled. You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer. No one is trying to convince him otherwise. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. I need it. This is merely a nice way of saying that God hasnt enlightened you to the truth. (LogOut/ Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting.